1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,000 The computer system, post office, spent an arm and a leg on, is faulty. 2 00:00:04,001 --> 00:00:07,000 We're ready to mount and fund an independent review. 3 00:00:07,001 --> 00:00:09,000 Angela, nice to meet you. 4 00:00:09,001 --> 00:00:10,000 Here to help. 5 00:00:10,001 --> 00:00:12,516 We are hearing from Bob that your organisation 6 00:00:12,528 --> 00:00:15,000 has been obstructive to his independent work. 7 00:00:15,001 --> 00:00:18,000 But this is about the reputation of the post office. 8 00:00:18,001 --> 00:00:22,000 You are the chief executive, so the buck stops with you. 9 00:00:22,001 --> 00:00:25,000 Blood on the house now. 10 00:00:25,001 --> 00:00:29,000 I am told that people are walking out of their mediation meeting. 11 00:00:29,001 --> 00:00:31,571 Our lawyers advise that no mediation scheme has 12 00:00:31,583 --> 00:00:34,000 the power to overturn a criminal conviction. 13 00:00:34,001 --> 00:00:36,000 You have broken your words to Parliament. 14 00:00:36,001 --> 00:00:39,000 They say there's no remote access to branch accounts, but they're lying. 15 00:00:39,001 --> 00:00:44,000 There was a whole room full of us inside Fujitsu doing thousands 16 00:00:44,001 --> 00:00:47,000 of corrections on her eyes and while a postmaster slept. 17 00:00:47,001 --> 00:00:49,384 It may be possible to raise the money to fight 18 00:00:49,396 --> 00:00:52,000 them in court, but only if there are enough of me. 19 00:00:52,001 --> 00:00:55,000 How many would you need? At least 500. I can do that. 20 00:02:11,001 --> 00:02:17,000 There are a few specialist funders who are prepared to take on this kind of risk. 21 00:02:17,001 --> 00:02:21,000 If we win, we pay them back out of your compensation. 22 00:02:21,001 --> 00:02:23,000 If we lose, please. 23 00:02:23,001 --> 00:02:25,000 Well, then they lose too. 24 00:02:25,001 --> 00:02:27,000 Their entire investment. 25 00:02:27,001 --> 00:02:29,000 It is high risk. 26 00:02:31,001 --> 00:02:35,000 When all lose, it costs a fortune. 27 00:02:35,001 --> 00:02:39,000 And there's no guarantee we'll ever see a penny. 28 00:02:39,001 --> 00:02:45,000 And I want to make it clear that there are a few other things. 29 00:02:45,001 --> 00:02:49,000 This group litigation is not going to do for us. 30 00:02:49,001 --> 00:02:51,000 I'm sorry, Joe. 31 00:02:51,001 --> 00:02:53,000 Sorry, no. 32 00:02:53,001 --> 00:02:59,000 But it's not going to overturn any criminal convictions. 33 00:02:59,001 --> 00:03:03,000 It's not going to discharge anyone's bankruptcies. 34 00:03:03,001 --> 00:03:07,152 It's not going to get back any house repossessions, 35 00:03:07,164 --> 00:03:11,000 and it's not going to repair anyone's shattered health. 36 00:03:11,001 --> 00:03:14,000 Or bring back those we've lost. 37 00:03:14,001 --> 00:03:20,000 Well, also, I've got to say there's a few of us here. 38 00:03:20,001 --> 00:03:24,000 We've not much faith in the law after everything that's happened. 39 00:03:24,001 --> 00:03:27,000 I believe in British justice, that's what he's saying. 40 00:03:27,001 --> 00:03:35,000 Well, I've told you all the things the laws not going to do for us. 41 00:03:35,001 --> 00:03:41,000 But I want you to think about what brought us together. 42 00:03:41,001 --> 00:03:46,000 All those things that we've been fighting for ever since. 43 00:03:46,001 --> 00:03:49,000 Compensation. 44 00:03:49,001 --> 00:03:51,000 Bigger than that. 45 00:03:51,001 --> 00:03:53,000 Justice. 46 00:03:53,001 --> 00:03:55,000 Bigger. 47 00:03:55,001 --> 00:03:58,000 Is it truth? Exactly. 48 00:03:58,001 --> 00:04:02,000 Yes, compensation. 49 00:04:02,001 --> 00:04:05,000 Yes, justice. 50 00:04:05,001 --> 00:04:09,000 But without the truth, we can't do either of those. 51 00:04:09,001 --> 00:04:13,000 Going to law will force the post office to open their files. 52 00:04:13,001 --> 00:04:21,001 So, finally, we'll get to know everything the post office knows. 53 00:04:22,001 --> 00:04:24,000 The truth. 54 00:04:24,001 --> 00:04:27,000 The whole truth. 55 00:04:27,001 --> 00:04:31,000 All those in favor. 56 00:04:31,001 --> 00:04:33,000 Motion carried. 57 00:04:33,001 --> 00:04:41,001 Yes, it's true that the post office will now have to give us everything that God. 58 00:04:52,001 --> 00:04:58,000 But it's also true that in fights like this, the size of more money usually wins. 59 00:04:58,001 --> 00:05:02,000 Unless something extraordinary happens. 60 00:05:02,001 --> 00:05:05,000 Our whole case is something extraordinary. 61 00:05:05,001 --> 00:05:06,000 Yes, yes, it is. 62 00:05:06,001 --> 00:05:07,000 I couldn't agree more. 63 00:05:07,001 --> 00:05:11,989 And what's very striking is how many people rang 64 00:05:12,001 --> 00:05:17,000 that helpline and were told you're the only one. 65 00:05:17,001 --> 00:05:21,000 I asked to see if that phrase was in the helpline scripts. 66 00:05:21,001 --> 00:05:24,000 And the post office said there aren't no scripts. 67 00:05:24,001 --> 00:05:26,400 Yeah, and anyone who's run helpline knows 68 00:05:26,412 --> 00:05:29,000 they parrot a script, so it's clearly a lie. 69 00:05:29,001 --> 00:05:32,000 So what happened to the principle of give us everything you've got? 70 00:05:32,001 --> 00:05:36,000 Well, whatever we asked them to disclose, they either say the record doesn't exist, 71 00:05:36,001 --> 00:05:39,419 or it's not relevant, and whatever documents they 72 00:05:39,431 --> 00:05:43,000 do provide are often pretty much redacted to death. 73 00:05:43,001 --> 00:05:47,000 Yes, I get the sense that none of this is coming as news to Mr Bates. 74 00:05:47,001 --> 00:05:49,000 Welcome to my world. 75 00:05:49,001 --> 00:05:54,000 The price of everything. 76 00:05:54,001 --> 00:05:57,000 I went looking for a dress, but all I could afford is a scar. 77 00:05:57,001 --> 00:06:00,000 Yeah, love, love, listen to me. 78 00:06:00,001 --> 00:06:04,000 Did your mom tell you that she had a doctor's apartment? 79 00:06:04,001 --> 00:06:06,000 No. 80 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:13,000 But you better go and speak to her. She's inside. 81 00:06:13,001 --> 00:06:21,001 I got a new scarf for the court hearing. You want to see? 82 00:06:23,001 --> 00:06:29,000 I'm sorry, love. I know you don't need this. 83 00:06:29,001 --> 00:06:32,000 They need what? 84 00:06:32,001 --> 00:06:34,000 I got counsel of. 85 00:06:34,001 --> 00:06:38,000 In a place I didn't even know was a place. 86 00:06:38,001 --> 00:06:40,000 Pancreas. 87 00:06:40,001 --> 00:06:46,000 Does it hurt? Well, oh, good. 88 00:06:46,001 --> 00:06:54,001 To look on that doctor's face, it was me offering him the Kleenex. 89 00:06:58,001 --> 00:07:02,000 You wouldn't tell me how long I don't, but well. 90 00:07:02,001 --> 00:07:09,000 Don't, don't. 91 00:07:09,001 --> 00:07:14,000 Don't you worry about me. 92 00:07:14,001 --> 00:07:16,000 You've got your taste to think about. 93 00:07:16,001 --> 00:07:20,000 Look, I don't care about any of that. 94 00:07:20,001 --> 00:07:22,000 Promise me? 95 00:07:22,001 --> 00:07:27,000 On my life, you'll see it through. 96 00:07:27,001 --> 00:07:34,000 Promise me, Joe. You won't rest till the world sees me. 97 00:07:34,001 --> 00:07:39,000 It is a baby held in my arms. 98 00:07:39,001 --> 00:07:41,000 I promise. 99 00:07:41,001 --> 00:07:43,000 I promise, well. 100 00:07:43,001 --> 00:07:51,001 I'm sorry for your loss, Joe. 101 00:07:55,001 --> 00:07:58,000 Five days, we had together. 102 00:07:58,001 --> 00:08:01,000 Five more days on this earth. 103 00:08:01,001 --> 00:08:03,000 Am I lucky my mum's gone? 104 00:08:03,001 --> 00:08:06,000 We really didn't need to come today. 105 00:08:06,001 --> 00:08:09,905 I made her a promise, but she's not even buried 106 00:08:09,917 --> 00:08:14,000 yet, so don't ask me what just happened in there. 107 00:08:14,001 --> 00:08:18,489 Well, there could be five separate trials, but they're going to 108 00:08:18,501 --> 00:08:23,000 make us wait another year before they even start the first one. 109 00:08:23,001 --> 00:08:27,000 And you won't get called as a witness, Joe. 110 00:08:27,001 --> 00:08:31,000 They won't call anyone who's got a criminal conviction. 111 00:08:31,001 --> 00:08:37,000 Well, I'll still come every day to support you. 112 00:08:37,001 --> 00:08:41,000 Bates and others versus the post office. 113 00:08:41,001 --> 00:08:44,000 I'll be others. 114 00:08:44,001 --> 00:08:49,000 I told our lawyers. I said, "All right, you can put my name on the tin if you want to. 115 00:08:49,001 --> 00:08:52,000 That doesn't mean you have to put me in the witness box. 116 00:08:52,001 --> 00:08:56,000 Use the best people, Alan. 117 00:08:56,001 --> 00:09:00,000 You are the best people. 118 00:09:00,001 --> 00:09:02,000 "Certainly, isn't it this? 119 00:09:02,001 --> 00:09:04,000 Three years ago, Paula Vennell's wrote, 120 00:09:04,001 --> 00:09:08,000 "Is it possible to access the system remotely or not?" 121 00:09:08,001 --> 00:09:10,000 We are told it is. 122 00:09:10,001 --> 00:09:16,000 And Paula then asks her managers, "What is the true answer?" 123 00:09:16,001 --> 00:09:18,400 I need to say no, it is not possible, and 124 00:09:18,412 --> 00:09:21,000 that we are sure of this because of X, X, X. 125 00:09:21,001 --> 00:09:23,000 I need the facts. 126 00:09:23,001 --> 00:09:25,000 Wow, okay. 127 00:09:25,001 --> 00:09:29,000 That is an email of Paula's that arrived this morning 128 00:09:29,001 --> 00:09:31,000 in a disclosure bundle, and it wasn't even redacted. 129 00:09:31,001 --> 00:09:33,000 Well, this is fundamental. 130 00:09:33,001 --> 00:09:35,000 If we can prove their remote access to your computers then. 131 00:09:35,001 --> 00:09:38,000 I mean, that means all the criminal convictions are unsafe. 132 00:09:38,001 --> 00:09:41,000 I'm forward to hearing you ask her about that in court, Patrick. 133 00:09:41,001 --> 00:09:43,600 Unfortunately, the post office also sent across 134 00:09:43,612 --> 00:09:50,000 their final list of witnesses this morning, and Paula Vennell's is not on it. 135 00:09:50,001 --> 00:09:52,000 Ah, brilliant. 136 00:09:52,001 --> 00:09:53,000 What? 137 00:09:53,001 --> 00:09:55,000 What's she worried about? 138 00:09:55,001 --> 00:09:57,000 That is a very strange decision. 139 00:09:57,001 --> 00:09:59,000 Who are they putting up instead? 140 00:09:59,001 --> 00:10:03,000 The People Services Director, and... Angela Vanden Bogot. 141 00:10:03,001 --> 00:10:05,000 They have more job titles and hot dinners. 142 00:10:05,001 --> 00:10:09,000 She's like a stick of Blackpool rock with post office written all the way through. 143 00:10:09,001 --> 00:10:12,000 And she's a hard-faced cow. 144 00:10:12,001 --> 00:10:14,000 Excellent. Why don't you tell us how you really feel about her? Yeah, well. 145 00:10:14,001 --> 00:10:15,000 Never mind. 146 00:10:15,001 --> 00:10:17,000 Alan, wait, wait. 147 00:10:17,001 --> 00:10:23,000 There is a possibility that Patrick can still question Angela on remote access. 148 00:10:23,001 --> 00:10:24,000 Where is it? 149 00:10:24,001 --> 00:10:27,000 This is from Angela's witness statement. 150 00:10:27,001 --> 00:10:32,000 Sub-postmasters are solely responsible for their branch accounts. 151 00:10:32,001 --> 00:10:38,000 There is no transaction that enters their accounts without their consent. 152 00:10:38,001 --> 00:10:41,000 Well, that's just not true. 153 00:10:41,001 --> 00:10:44,000 And we know a man who can prove it. 154 00:10:44,001 --> 00:10:47,000 Well, he would have whistled, though. 155 00:10:47,001 --> 00:10:51,000 He'd be right inside looking at some postmaster screen. 156 00:10:51,001 --> 00:10:54,000 You could tell if he was busy, you could see himself in his stamps. 157 00:10:54,001 --> 00:10:55,000 Remote access. 158 00:10:55,001 --> 00:10:57,000 Sometimes. 159 00:10:57,001 --> 00:10:58,000 Not often. 160 00:10:58,001 --> 00:11:01,000 Would go in using the postmaster's ID. 161 00:11:01,001 --> 00:11:05,000 Find the cause of his problems, fix it, come back out. 162 00:11:05,001 --> 00:11:07,000 He'd never even know. 163 00:11:07,001 --> 00:11:12,000 Which way it would look like he'd made the changes himself. 164 00:11:12,001 --> 00:11:14,000 Yeah. 165 00:11:14,001 --> 00:11:16,000 Richard, what if he couldn't fix it? 166 00:11:16,001 --> 00:11:19,000 What if he couldn't find a cause? I don't know. 167 00:11:19,001 --> 00:11:27,001 The postmaster took the blame. 168 00:11:28,001 --> 00:11:31,000 I can't remember much detail. 169 00:11:31,001 --> 00:11:33,514 And like I said to Alan, I'm not prepared to go to 170 00:11:33,526 --> 00:11:36,000 court or stick my neck out in any way whatsoever. 171 00:11:36,001 --> 00:11:37,000 Sure. 172 00:11:37,001 --> 00:11:39,000 Sure. 173 00:11:39,001 --> 00:11:44,000 No, no, no. It's not just that Richard is too shy to give evidence. 174 00:11:44,001 --> 00:11:49,000 He's got no evidence to give, no documents, no email. 175 00:11:49,001 --> 00:11:50,000 Alternative? 176 00:11:50,001 --> 00:11:51,000 Oh, we really need him. 177 00:11:51,001 --> 00:11:54,000 He's still the only fidgets are inside her to ever come forward. 178 00:11:54,001 --> 00:11:56,000 I meant ties. 179 00:11:56,001 --> 00:11:57,000 Oh. 180 00:11:57,001 --> 00:12:00,000 Maroon or Maroon. 181 00:12:00,001 --> 00:12:08,000 Oh, I'm not even going to ask. 182 00:12:08,001 --> 00:12:10,000 I think I took from the select committees. 183 00:12:10,001 --> 00:12:12,000 It really helps to use your face. 184 00:12:12,001 --> 00:12:17,000 You know, confused, skeptical, amused. 185 00:12:17,001 --> 00:12:20,000 And that's your master plan for the group litigation. 186 00:12:20,001 --> 00:12:22,000 Make faces at the post office. 187 00:12:22,001 --> 00:12:29,000 555 sub postmasters in our group. 188 00:12:29,001 --> 00:12:31,000 And I have to go on first. 189 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:40,000 I do solemnly and sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence 190 00:12:40,001 --> 00:12:45,000 I shall give to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. 191 00:12:45,001 --> 00:12:51,000 Good morning, Mr Bates. 192 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,410 Mr Bates would be right to say that in terms 193 00:13:04,422 --> 00:13:08,000 of due diligence, you are quite a careful man. 194 00:13:08,001 --> 00:13:09,000 Is that fair? 195 00:13:09,001 --> 00:13:12,000 You're a details man. 196 00:13:12,001 --> 00:13:13,000 Yes. 197 00:13:13,001 --> 00:13:15,516 Had paragraph 15 of your witness statement, do 198 00:13:15,528 --> 00:13:18,000 you refer to being sent an information sheet? 199 00:13:18,001 --> 00:13:23,875 The sub postmaster is personally responsible for all 200 00:13:23,887 --> 00:13:30,000 losses or gains incurred to post office cash or stock. 201 00:13:30,001 --> 00:13:33,000 You were aware you would be responsible for that loss. 202 00:13:33,001 --> 00:13:34,000 However large it was. 203 00:13:34,001 --> 00:13:38,000 At the time, we took over the post office. 204 00:13:38,001 --> 00:13:41,000 Losses weren't a major concern. 205 00:13:41,001 --> 00:13:47,000 The original deficits of 1,182 pounds. 206 00:13:47,001 --> 00:13:49,000 That is a staff error, isn't it? 207 00:13:49,001 --> 00:13:50,000 No. 208 00:13:50,001 --> 00:13:52,000 No. 209 00:13:52,001 --> 00:13:56,000 That was definitely horizon. 210 00:13:56,001 --> 00:13:59,000 From my point of view, without a shadow of doubt. 211 00:13:59,001 --> 00:14:03,000 You got it in your mind, it was horizon and forever more, it has been horizon. 212 00:14:03,001 --> 00:14:04,000 No. 213 00:14:04,001 --> 00:14:05,000 We jumped out. 214 00:14:05,001 --> 00:14:08,000 The errors jumped out. 215 00:14:08,001 --> 00:14:10,000 There couldn't have been anything else. 216 00:14:10,001 --> 00:14:16,771 I put to you generally that the overwhelming likelihood is that these deficits 217 00:14:16,783 --> 00:14:24,000 were most likely caused by error or wrongdoing in your branch by you or your staff. 218 00:14:24,001 --> 00:14:26,000 That is the post office case. 219 00:14:26,001 --> 00:14:34,001 Mr. Bates, that has been put to you so that you can tell me what the answer is. 220 00:14:36,001 --> 00:14:39,000 No, my lord. 221 00:14:39,001 --> 00:14:41,000 No. 222 00:14:41,001 --> 00:14:47,000 No further questions. 223 00:14:47,001 --> 00:14:48,000 Thank you. 224 00:14:48,001 --> 00:14:51,000 Thank you, Mr. Bates. You are excused. 225 00:14:51,001 --> 00:14:53,000 A details, ma'am. 226 00:14:53,001 --> 00:14:55,000 Might use that at home. 227 00:14:55,001 --> 00:14:57,000 Allen did OK, I think. 228 00:14:57,001 --> 00:14:59,000 Just so bloody wet first. 229 00:14:59,001 --> 00:15:07,001 I took over Barkham post office when my husband died on the 3rd of August 1999. 230 00:15:08,001 --> 00:15:11,000 So some 19 odd years ago. 231 00:15:11,001 --> 00:15:18,000 It's first say your memory of the details is probably pretty vague, is that fair? 232 00:15:18,001 --> 00:15:20,000 No, I don't think so. 233 00:15:20,001 --> 00:15:23,000 You are particularly stunning events are they like a car crash or something. 234 00:15:23,001 --> 00:15:27,000 Is that fair? 235 00:15:27,001 --> 00:15:35,001 If you are talking about August 1999, then yes, they are very similar to a car crash. 236 00:15:36,001 --> 00:15:40,000 You are talking about your husband's death. 237 00:15:40,001 --> 00:15:43,000 Yes. 238 00:15:43,001 --> 00:15:48,000 Yes, I accept that. 239 00:15:48,001 --> 00:15:55,000 Moving forward to your suspension, following the L18,000 deficit found on the audit. 240 00:15:55,001 --> 00:15:58,000 Well, I was staggered that I was suspended. 241 00:15:58,001 --> 00:16:00,000 Absolutely staggered. 242 00:16:00,001 --> 00:16:05,000 I was probably as angry and upset as I have ever been in my life. 243 00:16:05,001 --> 00:16:09,882 Because for the last six months I had been asking post office to help 244 00:16:09,894 --> 00:16:15,000 me find the source for these alleged shortfalls in order that I could... 245 00:16:15,001 --> 00:16:17,000 How can I put it? 246 00:16:17,001 --> 00:16:21,000 It would start me from bombarding them with phone calls, letters. 247 00:16:21,001 --> 00:16:25,000 A lot of them might think, well I received this letter, let's look at my contract. 248 00:16:25,001 --> 00:16:31,000 Let's look at Section 19, paragraph 4, and see whether they are entitled to. 249 00:16:31,001 --> 00:16:33,000 Well I couldn't do that. 250 00:16:33,001 --> 00:16:37,000 I had no entry to my post office from the day they did the closing audit. 251 00:16:37,001 --> 00:16:40,000 They took the keys away and locked them up. 252 00:16:40,001 --> 00:16:42,092 But my point is you immediately blame it on horizon 253 00:16:42,104 --> 00:16:44,000 without really casting a minus or other Poles. 254 00:16:44,001 --> 00:16:46,000 I dispute that completely. 255 00:16:46,001 --> 00:16:54,001 I never used to be an angry person. 256 00:16:56,001 --> 00:16:58,000 And it really works, doesn't it? 257 00:16:58,001 --> 00:17:00,000 I wouldn't know, I don't get angry. 258 00:17:00,001 --> 00:17:03,000 Well, I should give it a go, Alan. 259 00:17:03,001 --> 00:17:06,000 I was the stress of all this, I ended up killing it. 260 00:17:06,001 --> 00:17:12,000 I had the post office chose three witnesses and we chose three witnesses. 261 00:17:12,001 --> 00:17:15,000 The post office is read 555. 262 00:17:15,001 --> 00:17:17,000 Post-master statements, five that was made. 263 00:17:17,001 --> 00:17:22,000 So they chose Muhammad to be a because he has an accountancy qualification. 264 00:17:22,001 --> 00:17:26,000 So just watch them and try to make him extremely as well as dishonest. 265 00:17:26,001 --> 00:17:30,489 Do you accept from me that being involved over a period of years 266 00:17:30,501 --> 00:17:35,000 as an assistant accountant means that I can consider you as not? 267 00:17:35,001 --> 00:17:39,000 Commercially naive. 268 00:17:39,001 --> 00:17:43,000 I did not understand your question, please. 269 00:17:43,001 --> 00:17:46,000 Refres it, Mr. Wentworth. 270 00:17:46,001 --> 00:17:49,000 As at the time you applied to post office, yes. 271 00:17:49,001 --> 00:17:52,000 You were not commercially naive. 272 00:17:52,001 --> 00:17:57,000 My lord, English is not my first language. 273 00:17:57,001 --> 00:18:00,000 You had experience of commercial things. 274 00:18:00,001 --> 00:18:06,000 You went, let's put me on the spot trying to rephrase this. 275 00:18:06,001 --> 00:18:10,026 At that time, I was just thinking to buy the business, 276 00:18:10,038 --> 00:18:14,000 donate, make my life better, and serve the community. 277 00:18:14,001 --> 00:18:16,000 This was my main ambition. 278 00:18:16,001 --> 00:18:18,000 So if I am clear, honest. 279 00:18:18,001 --> 00:18:21,000 So don't be afraid of signing any contract with anybody. 280 00:18:21,001 --> 00:18:24,000 Assuming that they are doing everything for goodness of me. 281 00:18:24,001 --> 00:18:27,000 And I had already positive thinking about this. 282 00:18:27,001 --> 00:18:34,000 Okay, I think you would agree that a deficit of 4878 pounds is a serious matter. 283 00:18:34,001 --> 00:18:35,000 Do you agree with that? 284 00:18:35,001 --> 00:18:36,000 No, I didn't agree. 285 00:18:36,001 --> 00:18:39,000 I told them everything, what was the problem? 286 00:18:39,001 --> 00:18:44,000 Have you read all the documents which I submitted? 287 00:18:44,001 --> 00:18:46,000 I ran the post office helpline. 288 00:18:46,001 --> 00:18:48,000 Please, can somebody ring me? 289 00:18:48,001 --> 00:18:51,000 Or come to my office and resolve this problem. 290 00:18:51,001 --> 00:18:54,000 But they said we don't believe you, we have to suspend you. 291 00:18:54,001 --> 00:18:56,000 I never thought that I will lose everything. 292 00:18:56,001 --> 00:18:58,000 When I will be working in the post office. 293 00:18:58,001 --> 00:19:06,000 We are supposed to be the most civilized country. 294 00:19:06,001 --> 00:19:08,000 We don't expect anyone to behave like the post office. 295 00:19:08,001 --> 00:19:09,000 That's why they do this. 296 00:19:09,001 --> 00:19:12,000 Well, that's the million-dollar question. 297 00:19:12,001 --> 00:19:14,000 The QC was very clever. 298 00:19:14,001 --> 00:19:16,000 Big, big, picking up your own stuff. 299 00:19:16,001 --> 00:19:17,000 You did everything right. 300 00:19:17,001 --> 00:19:18,000 Ah, I'm it. 301 00:19:18,001 --> 00:19:20,000 You told the truth and that's all that matters. 302 00:19:20,001 --> 00:19:22,000 Truth is truth. 303 00:19:22,001 --> 00:19:23,000 Truth is truth. 304 00:19:23,001 --> 00:19:28,000 Can't hide it. 305 00:19:28,001 --> 00:19:30,000 Well, that was brilliant. 306 00:19:30,001 --> 00:19:32,000 He chose him and he smashed them. 307 00:19:32,001 --> 00:19:36,000 Just a pile of ash or other post office used to be. 308 00:19:36,001 --> 00:19:40,000 Well, Angela Vanden Bogan in the witness box tomorrow. 309 00:19:40,001 --> 00:19:42,000 You get to ask the question. 310 00:19:42,001 --> 00:19:43,000 Let's do. 311 00:19:43,001 --> 00:19:46,000 And I've got plenty. 312 00:19:46,001 --> 00:19:50,000 We get to see if we put the right man for the job. 313 00:19:50,001 --> 00:19:55,000 OK. 314 00:19:55,001 --> 00:19:56,000 Miss Vanden Bogan. 315 00:19:56,001 --> 00:20:00,000 If we could please look at Document G43/1. 316 00:20:00,001 --> 00:20:02,000 So this is co-authored by you. 317 00:20:02,001 --> 00:20:06,000 Horizon Help has since its introduction over a decade ago, 318 00:20:06,001 --> 00:20:10,000 fallen short of delivering the functionality that was promised as part of 319 00:20:10,001 --> 00:20:16,000 Horizon rollout, and that postmasters and their assistance desperately need. 320 00:20:16,001 --> 00:20:18,000 Yes. 321 00:20:18,001 --> 00:20:22,000 That is an honest and candid internal recognition of the situation, isn't it? 322 00:20:22,001 --> 00:20:26,000 There were short comings in the user experience. 323 00:20:26,001 --> 00:20:30,000 It's... It's clunky. 324 00:20:30,001 --> 00:20:33,000 Would be the word I would use. 325 00:20:33,001 --> 00:20:35,000 Clunky. 326 00:20:35,001 --> 00:20:36,000 Right. 327 00:20:36,001 --> 00:20:44,001 So why don't you mention this in your witness statement? I don't. 328 00:20:49,001 --> 00:20:57,000 I suppose the length of my witness statement, it's so long anyway that. 329 00:20:57,001 --> 00:20:59,223 Was it your understanding that there was a 330 00:20:59,235 --> 00:21:02,000 restriction on the length of your witness statement? 331 00:21:02,001 --> 00:21:06,000 The witness statement in itself is quite lengthy anyway. 332 00:21:06,001 --> 00:21:11,000 And so I suppose it was just myself. 333 00:21:11,001 --> 00:21:13,000 Mr. Green. 334 00:21:13,001 --> 00:21:19,000 If we could go please to Document G38/2. 335 00:21:19,001 --> 00:21:22,000 So it's 30th of January 2015. 336 00:21:22,001 --> 00:21:28,000 Mrs. Venel's asks, "Is it possible to access the system remotely? 337 00:21:28,001 --> 00:21:33,000 I need to say no, it is not possible, and that we are sure of this. 338 00:21:33,001 --> 00:21:36,000 "So in 2015 it would be wrong to say, wouldn't it? 339 00:21:36,001 --> 00:21:42,000 That post office couldn't remotely access Horizon data. 340 00:21:42,001 --> 00:21:45,000 Post office can't. 341 00:21:45,001 --> 00:21:49,000 Could he do it through Fujitsu? 342 00:21:49,001 --> 00:21:56,000 Through Fujitsu? Yes, I can. 343 00:21:56,001 --> 00:22:04,001 Yes. 344 00:22:07,001 --> 00:22:09,000 You're going to have to keep your voice up, I'm afraid. 345 00:22:09,001 --> 00:22:11,000 I'm sorry. 346 00:22:11,001 --> 00:22:16,000 I suggest you are hesitant to accept anything that is damaging to post office. 347 00:22:16,001 --> 00:22:18,000 That is not the case. 348 00:22:18,001 --> 00:22:22,000 Do you feel pressure to protect the post office brand now? 349 00:22:22,001 --> 00:22:24,000 At this particular moment. 350 00:22:24,001 --> 00:22:25,000 Yes. 351 00:22:25,001 --> 00:22:26,000 No. 352 00:22:26,001 --> 00:22:28,000 Can I just ask one simple question? 353 00:22:28,001 --> 00:22:32,000 What exactly does protecting a brand mean? 354 00:22:32,001 --> 00:22:40,001 It just means that one, it is making sure that how we 355 00:22:42,001 --> 00:22:47,000 do things, how we behave, how we interact with people. 356 00:22:47,001 --> 00:22:54,000 And it's just making sure that at all times we are maintaining that. 357 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:03,000 Maybe about midnight, that's pretty good for me. 358 00:23:14,001 --> 00:23:18,000 All the meetings with MPs, letters to the minister, 359 00:23:18,001 --> 00:23:21,000 more ministers than you can shake a stick at. 360 00:23:21,001 --> 00:23:24,000 Years and years. 361 00:23:24,001 --> 00:23:29,000 Still nobody in power is a word we say. 362 00:23:29,001 --> 00:23:32,000 Let's brought this on. 363 00:23:32,001 --> 00:23:34,000 Your ears on us, list. 364 00:23:34,001 --> 00:23:35,000 God's sake. 365 00:23:35,001 --> 00:23:36,000 Come on, turn it off. 366 00:23:36,001 --> 00:23:37,000 Details, man, come to bed. 367 00:23:37,001 --> 00:23:39,000 All of Reynolds has got the CBE. 368 00:23:39,001 --> 00:23:42,000 Choking. 369 00:23:42,001 --> 00:23:44,000 Services to the post office. 370 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,000 Always another trick of their sleeves. 371 00:23:52,001 --> 00:23:57,000 We'll see you all there. 372 00:23:57,001 --> 00:24:04,000 The post office now admit they do have remote access, 373 00:24:04,001 --> 00:24:07,000 but they insist it could never happen without 374 00:24:07,001 --> 00:24:08,000 the knowledge and permission of a sub postmaster. 375 00:24:08,001 --> 00:24:09,000 Well, they're wrong. 376 00:24:09,001 --> 00:24:11,000 Of course they are. 377 00:24:11,001 --> 00:24:14,000 But it's 15 years ago, more. 378 00:24:14,001 --> 00:24:19,000 I can't remember the details. 379 00:24:19,001 --> 00:24:21,000 I can't help you, Alan. 380 00:24:21,001 --> 00:24:24,000 There must be someone else. 381 00:24:24,001 --> 00:24:28,000 It's not that bad, honestly. 382 00:24:28,001 --> 00:24:31,000 There will be loads of other witnesses. 383 00:24:31,001 --> 00:24:36,000 I wasn't senior, Alan, not at all. 384 00:24:36,001 --> 00:24:40,000 I'm a girlfriend really doesn't want me draw an attention to myself. 385 00:24:40,001 --> 00:24:42,000 Just have to talk to the judge. 386 00:24:42,001 --> 00:24:49,000 Ignore everyone else. 387 00:24:49,001 --> 00:24:52,000 You can really help us out there, Richard. 388 00:24:52,001 --> 00:24:56,000 I'm still beyond for your tea. 389 00:24:56,001 --> 00:25:00,000 I'll only disappoint you. 390 00:25:00,001 --> 00:25:05,000 You'll be fine. 391 00:25:05,001 --> 00:25:08,000 Joe? 392 00:25:08,001 --> 00:25:09,000 What was it doing here? 393 00:25:09,001 --> 00:25:11,000 I wouldn't miss this for the world. 394 00:25:11,001 --> 00:25:16,000 A few jiu-jitsu technical supports, given evidence under oaths. 395 00:25:16,001 --> 00:25:18,000 The guy's quite shy. 396 00:25:18,001 --> 00:25:20,000 Alan's worried about him. 397 00:25:20,001 --> 00:25:21,000 A real life whistle, though. 398 00:25:21,001 --> 00:25:24,000 It's going to be dying, am I, kid? 399 00:25:24,001 --> 00:25:26,000 Mr. Rowe. 400 00:25:26,001 --> 00:25:33,000 Would you accept that your recollection of your time at Fujitsu is hazy? 401 00:25:33,001 --> 00:25:36,000 It is quite hazy. 402 00:25:36,001 --> 00:25:44,000 He could just be my perception of events from 15, 17 years ago. 403 00:25:44,001 --> 00:25:49,000 See, why not saying that you were routinely encountering coding issues? Bugs. 404 00:25:49,001 --> 00:25:52,852 You don't recall ever having encountered a 405 00:25:52,864 --> 00:25:56,000 bug that definitely caused a financial impact. 406 00:25:56,001 --> 00:26:01,000 I don't recall discovering one. 407 00:26:01,001 --> 00:26:05,000 I'm going to move on to remote access now, Mr. Rowe. 408 00:26:05,001 --> 00:26:09,623 My suggestion to you will be that you never, and would never manually 409 00:26:09,635 --> 00:26:14,000 change a transaction line of data that a Postmaster had keyed in. 410 00:26:14,001 --> 00:26:19,000 Now, that is something we did as far as I remember it. 411 00:26:19,001 --> 00:26:23,000 But ultimately, the Postmaster would be able to see what Fujitsu had done. 412 00:26:23,001 --> 00:26:25,000 Is that true? 413 00:26:25,001 --> 00:26:28,926 Again, my understanding is that in certain 414 00:26:28,938 --> 00:26:34,000 circumstances, the data would be in indistinguishable. 415 00:26:34,001 --> 00:26:37,000 Yes, that was what you were trying to say. 416 00:26:37,001 --> 00:26:38,000 Yes, my lord. 417 00:26:38,001 --> 00:26:40,000 You couldn't tell the difference. 418 00:26:40,001 --> 00:26:43,000 No, you couldn't tell the difference. 419 00:26:43,001 --> 00:26:51,001 Remote access to the horizon system at branch level was extensive. 420 00:26:55,001 --> 00:26:59,215 We had the ability to change data and change transaction 421 00:26:59,227 --> 00:27:03,000 information even while the Postmaster was working. 422 00:27:03,001 --> 00:27:06,000 Without the Postmaster being aware. 423 00:27:06,001 --> 00:27:09,000 Yes, that is my understanding. 424 00:27:09,001 --> 00:27:11,000 You're understanding. 425 00:27:11,001 --> 00:27:13,000 No. 426 00:27:13,001 --> 00:27:15,000 My recollection. 427 00:27:15,001 --> 00:27:22,000 Thought he was great in the end. 428 00:27:22,001 --> 00:27:24,000 I wonder if it's enough. 429 00:27:24,001 --> 00:27:29,000 I asked you a question, Bob. 430 00:27:29,001 --> 00:27:31,000 Years ago, when we first met. 431 00:27:31,001 --> 00:27:35,000 Bob, where did all the money go? 432 00:27:35,001 --> 00:27:39,000 36,000 pounds, they took off me. 433 00:27:39,001 --> 00:27:45,000 Now, I think I can't prove it, Joe, not yet, but I will. 434 00:27:45,001 --> 00:27:50,000 The money you gave them that they claimed you owed them, 435 00:27:50,001 --> 00:27:54,000 hung around in some sort of suspense account 436 00:27:54,001 --> 00:27:57,000 for a while, while they failed to investigate. 437 00:27:57,001 --> 00:28:02,000 And after a couple of years, your money, everyone's 438 00:28:02,001 --> 00:28:06,000 money, it just showed up in their profits. 439 00:28:06,001 --> 00:28:10,000 My 36,000 pounds, that I didn't steal, 440 00:28:10,001 --> 00:28:16,000 that they actually stole off me to pay off a debt 441 00:28:16,001 --> 00:28:21,000 that never existed, is in the Post Office profits. 442 00:28:21,001 --> 00:28:29,000 I just... I mean, are they just incompetent Alan or just evil? Yeah. 443 00:28:29,001 --> 00:28:35,000 Well, you know, it comes the same thing in the end. 444 00:28:35,001 --> 00:28:36,000 What? Please. 445 00:28:36,001 --> 00:28:37,000 Definitely. 446 00:28:37,001 --> 00:28:45,001 The Post Office describes itself on its own 447 00:28:46,001 --> 00:28:50,000 website as the nation's most trusted brand. 448 00:28:50,001 --> 00:28:54,000 Well, as far as these claimants are concerned, 449 00:28:54,001 --> 00:28:57,000 this might be thought to be wholly wishful thinking. 450 00:28:57,001 --> 00:29:01,000 The Post Office witnesses give me the impression 451 00:29:01,001 --> 00:29:05,000 that they simply cannot allow themselves to consider the possibility 452 00:29:05,001 --> 00:29:08,000 that the Post Office may be wrong, as the consequences 453 00:29:08,001 --> 00:29:12,000 are doing so, are too significant to contemplate. 454 00:29:12,001 --> 00:29:17,000 Angela Vanden Bogard did not always give me Frank evidence. 455 00:29:17,001 --> 00:29:19,000 She sought to mislead me. 456 00:29:19,001 --> 00:29:24,000 Her judgment also seemed to be uniquely exercised to paint the Post Office 457 00:29:24,001 --> 00:29:29,000 in the most favorable light possible, regardless of the facts. 458 00:29:29,001 --> 00:29:34,000 Mr. Bates seemed to me to offer his evidence honestly, and... 459 00:29:34,001 --> 00:29:38,000 Just proved himself to be... Unreasonable. 460 00:29:38,001 --> 00:29:42,000 Stubborn and considerable irritant to the Post Office. 461 00:29:42,001 --> 00:29:44,000 He's got you to a T? 462 00:29:44,001 --> 00:29:48,000 Yeah, and the Post Office too. 463 00:29:48,001 --> 00:29:55,000 Oppressive on fair, excessive secrecy, and, well, 180,000 other words, just the same. 464 00:29:55,001 --> 00:29:56,000 Sorry. 465 00:29:56,001 --> 00:29:58,000 We've got to get back into court now. 466 00:29:58,001 --> 00:29:59,000 Why? 467 00:29:59,001 --> 00:30:01,000 Somebody's come on. 468 00:30:01,001 --> 00:30:03,000 Hold on, love. 469 00:30:03,001 --> 00:30:05,000 I just saw this five minutes ago. 470 00:30:05,001 --> 00:30:09,000 It's an application for me to recuse myself as 471 00:30:09,001 --> 00:30:11,000 being the managing judge in these proceedings. 472 00:30:11,001 --> 00:30:14,000 Mr. Wentworth, that you care to elaborate. 473 00:30:14,001 --> 00:30:16,000 The Post Office has asked the judge to sack himself 474 00:30:16,001 --> 00:30:19,000 on the grounds that he's clearly biased against the Post Office. 475 00:30:19,001 --> 00:30:21,000 Amazing. 476 00:30:21,001 --> 00:30:22,000 It's just the best day ever. 477 00:30:22,001 --> 00:30:24,000 It's like a gift from heaven. 478 00:30:24,001 --> 00:30:25,000 Proof their desperate. 479 00:30:25,001 --> 00:30:26,000 Absolutely. 480 00:30:26,001 --> 00:30:30,000 I mean, well, Alan, the most catastrophic mistake you can make 481 00:30:30,001 --> 00:30:33,000 is to make unfounded allegations of bias against the judge. 482 00:30:33,001 --> 00:30:37,000 I mean, you just... I've never even... The idiot. 483 00:30:37,001 --> 00:30:40,000 I bet it wasn't the lawyers who decided to do this. 484 00:30:40,001 --> 00:30:43,000 I bet it came from the Post Office boardroom. 485 00:30:43,001 --> 00:30:45,000 Oh, well, to be a fan of all, eh? 486 00:30:45,001 --> 00:30:46,000 Well, we're winning. 487 00:30:46,001 --> 00:30:49,000 Well, yes, but... Oh. 488 00:30:49,001 --> 00:30:53,000 I should have known there was a butt coming over the hill. 489 00:30:53,001 --> 00:30:56,000 Well, the trial stops now. 490 00:30:56,001 --> 00:31:00,000 It'll be weeks, months of arguments to follow. 491 00:31:00,001 --> 00:31:02,000 On whether we need a new judge. 492 00:31:02,001 --> 00:31:07,000 It's a delay the Post Office can afford, but we can't. 493 00:31:07,001 --> 00:31:08,000 That's why they're doing this. 494 00:31:08,001 --> 00:31:11,000 They're doing this to make us run out of money. 495 00:31:11,001 --> 00:31:16,000 Alan, we have run out of money. 496 00:31:16,001 --> 00:31:22,000 No. 497 00:31:22,001 --> 00:31:24,000 No, no. 498 00:31:24,001 --> 00:31:26,000 We can't stop now. 499 00:31:26,001 --> 00:31:30,000 No one's talking about stopping not at all. 500 00:31:30,001 --> 00:31:38,001 But it is time to start negotiating a settlement. 501 00:31:41,001 --> 00:31:45,000 I think you're forgetting, ah? 502 00:31:45,001 --> 00:31:48,000 I've negotiated with this mob before. 503 00:31:48,001 --> 00:31:50,000 And people have died. 504 00:31:50,001 --> 00:31:53,000 Well, people are still dying. 505 00:31:53,001 --> 00:31:56,000 You know this, alright, but nobody else does. 506 00:31:56,001 --> 00:31:59,000 There's millions of people out there who've never heard of us. 507 00:31:59,001 --> 00:32:05,000 We don't know about the suicides and the ruined lives. 508 00:32:05,001 --> 00:32:11,000 God knows how many victims who are still too scared to come forward. 509 00:32:11,001 --> 00:32:12,000 Ha. 510 00:32:12,001 --> 00:32:18,000 I haven't spent 20 years battling these bastards to pack up now 511 00:32:18,001 --> 00:32:22,000 and give the Post Office license to start running a mock and destroying lives. 512 00:32:22,001 --> 00:32:23,000 Again. 513 00:32:23,001 --> 00:32:30,000 Well, well, I've shut it off. 514 00:32:30,001 --> 00:32:35,000 We have to win. 515 00:32:35,001 --> 00:32:41,000 Alan, we just did. 516 00:32:41,001 --> 00:32:44,000 This is what winning looks like. 517 00:32:44,001 --> 00:32:48,000 You're talking as though this is a defeat and it's really not. 518 00:32:48,001 --> 00:32:51,000 This is just what happens towards the end of any litigation week. 519 00:32:51,001 --> 00:32:54,000 We get around the table and if we don't, and we lose in 520 00:32:54,001 --> 00:32:56,000 that arena, we lose everything we've achieved so far. 521 00:32:56,001 --> 00:32:58,000 And the clock sets back to zero. 522 00:32:58,001 --> 00:33:05,000 So it's about knowing when to stop and when to negotiate. 523 00:33:05,001 --> 00:33:08,000 So, that's it. Give up now. 524 00:33:08,001 --> 00:33:10,000 No, no. 525 00:33:10,001 --> 00:33:15,000 We settle. 526 00:33:15,001 --> 00:33:19,000 It's a good thing. 527 00:33:19,001 --> 00:33:27,001 This is Venice. 528 00:33:29,001 --> 00:33:37,000 All of Venice? 529 00:33:37,001 --> 00:33:38,000 Yes. 530 00:33:38,001 --> 00:33:41,000 Ned Foster, Daily Mail. Would you like to say anything to the Postmasters 531 00:33:41,001 --> 00:33:43,000 who've been through such a long legal battle? 532 00:33:43,001 --> 00:33:45,000 No. I really find this unacceptable. 533 00:33:45,001 --> 00:33:47,000 Would you like to apologize to me? 534 00:33:47,001 --> 00:33:49,000 Will you just go away? 535 00:33:49,001 --> 00:33:51,000 So you won't apologize. 536 00:33:51,001 --> 00:33:52,000 Please go away. 537 00:33:52,001 --> 00:33:54,000 Well, can I confirm them, Mrs. 538 00:33:54,001 --> 00:33:56,000 Venice? You're saying you will not apologize to the 539 00:33:56,001 --> 00:33:59,000 Postmasters after everything that they've been through. 540 00:33:59,001 --> 00:34:03,000 After an epic legal battle during which the Post Office tried and failed to 541 00:34:03,001 --> 00:34:07,000 remove the judge, the subpostmasters have won on almost every count. 542 00:34:07,001 --> 00:34:12,000 Their victory comes with a compensation package worth 58 million pounds. 543 00:34:12,001 --> 00:34:16,000 Well, you took them on and you won. 544 00:34:16,001 --> 00:34:21,000 And I cannot overstate enough quite the scale of this achievement. 545 00:34:21,001 --> 00:34:24,000 It is more than we could have ever dreamed of from the beginning. 546 00:34:24,001 --> 00:34:27,000 It is an absolutely astonishing victory. 547 00:34:27,001 --> 00:34:31,000 In my professional career, I have never seen anything quite like this. 548 00:34:38,001 --> 00:34:45,000 Having said that, I do need to make you aware that inevitably, 549 00:34:45,001 --> 00:34:49,000 there are legal fees and court costs and our obligations 550 00:34:49,001 --> 00:34:52,000 to our funders that will eat into that total. 551 00:34:52,001 --> 00:35:00,001 So the amount that will be left after that to divide amongst yourselves as 552 00:35:02,001 --> 00:35:07,000 compensation will be in the region of 12 million pounds. 553 00:35:07,001 --> 00:35:12,000 Wait, 12 million between 555? 554 00:35:12,001 --> 00:35:16,000 That's what 20, 20 grand each? On average. 555 00:35:16,001 --> 00:35:18,000 Yes. 556 00:35:18,001 --> 00:35:19,000 20,000 pounds. 557 00:35:19,001 --> 00:35:23,000 Don't want to touch the sides of what we've lost. 558 00:35:23,001 --> 00:35:28,000 Listen, I understand, but what you must remember 559 00:35:28,001 --> 00:35:29,000 is that today's settlement opens a lot of doors. 560 00:35:29,001 --> 00:35:34,000 So that people with convictions can now use these 561 00:35:34,001 --> 00:35:37,000 judgments to help with their appeals going forward forever. 562 00:35:37,001 --> 00:35:45,000 So what this also means is that those postmasters who've been too scared to 563 00:35:45,001 --> 00:35:53,000 come forward up to now will be able to do so without fear. 564 00:35:53,001 --> 00:36:00,000 Friends, we did talk this over and over again. 565 00:36:00,001 --> 00:36:08,001 And we knew we might not see a penny, but we decided we voted to go ahead. 566 00:36:10,001 --> 00:36:15,000 They got paid right. 567 00:36:15,001 --> 00:36:23,001 Excuse me, excuse me. 568 00:36:25,001 --> 00:36:29,000 Excuse me. 569 00:36:29,001 --> 00:36:32,453 I've been in court every single day, and I saw us 570 00:36:32,465 --> 00:36:36,000 with my own eyes winning the most massive victory. 571 00:36:36,001 --> 00:36:42,000 And that's all down to Allen and James and Patrick. 572 00:36:42,001 --> 00:36:44,000 And their hard work. 573 00:36:44,001 --> 00:36:49,000 So could you just all stop it? 574 00:36:49,001 --> 00:36:57,001 I've never been to end, is it? 575 00:37:13,001 --> 00:37:15,885 I wouldn't mind, but our legal team worked 576 00:37:15,897 --> 00:37:19,000 for free a lot of the time, and none of them. 577 00:37:19,001 --> 00:37:22,000 Not even the funders took anything like the fees they would do. 578 00:37:22,001 --> 00:37:24,000 Well, anyway, it's not about money, is it? 579 00:37:24,001 --> 00:37:27,000 Well, it is, partly. 580 00:37:27,001 --> 00:37:28,000 Mostly. 581 00:37:28,001 --> 00:37:30,000 You know what I mean? You won, Allen. 582 00:37:30,001 --> 00:37:38,000 You set out to prove horizon is faulty, and you did it. 583 00:37:38,001 --> 00:37:39,000 You won. 584 00:37:39,001 --> 00:37:44,000 But everyone is still skinned. 585 00:37:44,001 --> 00:37:47,000 Allen. 586 00:37:47,001 --> 00:37:48,000 Lee, yeah. 587 00:37:48,001 --> 00:37:52,000 I want to, but not attacking you, Allen. 588 00:37:52,001 --> 00:37:55,000 Everyone can see you did your best. 589 00:37:55,001 --> 00:37:58,000 Thank you. 590 00:37:58,001 --> 00:38:01,000 Me, though. 591 00:38:01,001 --> 00:38:05,000 Don't listen to the angry people, but upset, tired. 592 00:38:05,001 --> 00:38:06,000 I know. 593 00:38:06,001 --> 00:38:08,000 It's all right. 594 00:38:08,001 --> 00:38:12,000 Just remember, we'd be nowhere without you, Mr Bates. 595 00:38:12,001 --> 00:38:15,000 You're a legend. 596 00:38:15,001 --> 00:38:23,001 There from the beginning, and you never wavered, never. 597 00:38:35,001 --> 00:38:38,000 Not for all those long years. 598 00:38:38,001 --> 00:38:43,000 Just been a tower of strength and new ideas. 599 00:38:43,001 --> 00:38:46,000 Oh, well, I'm embarrassing you. 600 00:38:46,001 --> 00:38:48,000 Hey, listen. 601 00:38:48,001 --> 00:38:51,000 Joe. 602 00:38:51,001 --> 00:38:54,000 All this evidence, the litigation has dug up. 603 00:38:54,001 --> 00:38:57,000 All the secrets coming out of the woodwork. 604 00:38:57,001 --> 00:39:00,000 Well, we got to the truth. 605 00:39:00,001 --> 00:39:02,000 It belongs to us now. 606 00:39:02,001 --> 00:39:07,000 Use it, prove your innocence, go to the court of appeal, 607 00:39:07,001 --> 00:39:11,000 and show the world what a miscarriage of justice really looks like. 608 00:39:11,001 --> 00:39:15,000 All right, Evan. 609 00:39:15,001 --> 00:39:23,001 But what are you going to do? 610 00:39:27,001 --> 00:39:32,000 Oh, there's a pint of beer in Wales with my name on it. 611 00:39:32,001 --> 00:39:40,001 I think people are bitter. 612 00:39:47,001 --> 00:39:49,000 They're angry. 613 00:39:49,001 --> 00:39:51,000 And I guess I do. 614 00:39:51,001 --> 00:39:52,000 I'm bitter. 615 00:39:52,001 --> 00:39:53,000 I'm angry. 616 00:39:53,001 --> 00:39:55,000 And I care about them only. 617 00:39:55,001 --> 00:39:57,000 Of course I do. 618 00:39:57,001 --> 00:40:02,000 I care about the home we should have had, the life we could have had. 619 00:40:02,001 --> 00:40:05,000 But I care about justice too. 620 00:40:05,001 --> 00:40:10,000 And you care about you, so don't you dare go blaming yourself. 621 00:40:10,001 --> 00:40:11,000 I don't. 622 00:40:11,001 --> 00:40:15,000 You have absolutely nothing to blame yourself for. 623 00:40:15,001 --> 00:40:18,000 And that's why I don't blame myself. 624 00:40:18,001 --> 00:40:23,000 Come on, let's get home. 625 00:40:23,001 --> 00:40:28,000 I've never seen the point of getting angry, Suzanne. 626 00:40:28,001 --> 00:40:32,000 I treat you like a job. 627 00:40:32,001 --> 00:40:36,000 Something I lift off the shelf and then put back after. 628 00:40:36,001 --> 00:40:38,000 Funnily enough, I don't really remember that part. 629 00:40:38,001 --> 00:40:40,000 They're putting it back on the shelf part. 630 00:40:40,001 --> 00:40:44,000 More than seven days a week, 365 days a year apart. 631 00:40:44,001 --> 00:40:49,000 And also Alan, jobs are things that people have paid to do. 632 00:40:49,001 --> 00:40:53,000 I guess something went a bit wrong there. 633 00:40:53,001 --> 00:40:58,000 Not actually giving up at all of you. 634 00:40:58,001 --> 00:41:06,001 Well, there's the small matter of every one of the 555 getting their money back. 635 00:41:07,001 --> 00:41:09,925 And then there's the small matter of the right 636 00:41:09,937 --> 00:41:13,000 people holding up their hands to take the blame. 637 00:41:13,001 --> 00:41:15,000 All the vendors. 638 00:41:15,001 --> 00:41:17,000 The British government. 639 00:41:17,001 --> 00:41:19,000 Why? 640 00:41:19,001 --> 00:41:24,000 Well, because the government is the one and only owner of the 641 00:41:24,001 --> 00:41:27,000 good ship post office, which doesn't have a penny in its coffers, 642 00:41:27,001 --> 00:41:30,000 owing to the fact it's spent it all fighting us. 643 00:41:30,001 --> 00:41:32,436 All of which means that in the end, a Majesty's 644 00:41:32,448 --> 00:41:35,000 government is going to have to hold up its hands, 645 00:41:35,001 --> 00:41:40,000 except responsibility for this fiasco, and pay us the compensation we deserve. 646 00:41:40,001 --> 00:41:42,432 When people say the government, they really 647 00:41:42,444 --> 00:41:45,000 mean taxpayer, but nobody would begrudge you. 648 00:41:45,001 --> 00:41:48,000 We established the truth in the court of law, James. 649 00:41:48,001 --> 00:41:54,000 And now, I'm focusing on the 555 who need their lives putting that together. 650 00:41:54,001 --> 00:41:56,000 You don't give up, do you? You're awkward, son. 651 00:41:56,001 --> 00:42:00,000 Well, someone's got to be. 652 00:42:00,001 --> 00:42:06,000 Alan, cast your mind back, if you will, to the summer of 2013. 653 00:42:06,001 --> 00:42:08,000 Bob was doing his review. 654 00:42:08,001 --> 00:42:10,000 And you were fighting me every inch of the way. 655 00:42:10,001 --> 00:42:12,000 I was right, though. 656 00:42:12,001 --> 00:42:17,000 And at the same time, the post office in secret, and at the highest level, 657 00:42:17,001 --> 00:42:21,000 were commissioning independent legal advice. 658 00:42:21,001 --> 00:42:25,447 This lawyer's report establishes beyond doubt that the 659 00:42:25,459 --> 00:42:30,000 post office lied to and were in contempt of Parliament. 660 00:42:30,001 --> 00:42:32,000 You were right. 661 00:42:32,001 --> 00:42:33,855 It also improves that all the time we were 662 00:42:33,867 --> 00:42:36,000 waiting through treatment trying to investigate. 663 00:42:36,001 --> 00:42:39,792 Senior post office executives were shredding documents and 664 00:42:39,804 --> 00:42:44,000 failing to disclose that they knew they were unsafe convictions. 665 00:42:44,001 --> 00:42:46,000 Did Paul and her? 666 00:42:46,001 --> 00:42:50,000 It's not possible to say with any certainty. 667 00:42:50,001 --> 00:42:57,000 I want to say that I'm deeply sorry for those subpostmasters who have suffered. 668 00:42:57,001 --> 00:43:02,000 I have read many of their stories, and they are harrowing. 669 00:43:02,001 --> 00:43:05,000 They are with me every day. 670 00:43:05,001 --> 00:43:11,000 I was and remain deeply disturbed by what has come to light. 671 00:43:11,001 --> 00:43:16,206 It is contrary to what I believe through my time 672 00:43:16,218 --> 00:43:21,000 as CEO of post office between 2012 and 2019. 673 00:43:21,001 --> 00:43:24,798 I wish to state for the record that I do 674 00:43:24,810 --> 00:43:29,000 not accept any personal criminal misconduct. 675 00:43:29,001 --> 00:43:37,001 This judgment concerns 42 men and women who were all prosecuted by their employer. 676 00:43:58,001 --> 00:44:04,000 And convicted of crimes of dishonesty. 677 00:44:04,001 --> 00:44:10,000 Josephine Hamilton pleaded guilty to 14 counts of false accounting. 678 00:44:10,001 --> 00:44:16,000 There was no examination of the data for bugs, errors or defects. 679 00:44:16,001 --> 00:44:24,001 There was no proof of an actual loss as opposed to an horizon generated shortage. 680 00:44:25,001 --> 00:44:28,959 Even more alarming post office limits its own 681 00:44:28,971 --> 00:44:34,000 investigator had reported there was no evidence of theft. 682 00:44:34,001 --> 00:44:41,000 We conclude Mrs Hamilton's prosecution was unfair and an affront to justice. 683 00:44:41,001 --> 00:44:44,000 We allow her appeal. 684 00:44:44,001 --> 00:44:48,000 We quash her convictions. 685 00:44:48,001 --> 00:44:54,000 Not withstanding his guilty plea, nor Thomas' conviction is unsafe. 686 00:44:54,001 --> 00:44:56,000 We allow his appeal. 687 00:44:56,001 --> 00:45:01,000 His prosecution was unfair and an affront to justice. 688 00:45:01,001 --> 00:45:05,000 In the case of Susan Radkin, we allow her appeal. 689 00:45:05,001 --> 00:45:07,000 Her conviction is unsafe. 690 00:45:07,001 --> 00:45:11,556 Very sadly, three of the applicants, Julian Wilson, Peter Holmes and 691 00:45:11,568 --> 00:45:16,000 Dawn O'Connell have not lived to see the outcome of their appeals. 692 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:24,000 She's the first office court to go to prison. 693 00:45:24,001 --> 00:45:25,000 No, no, no. 694 00:45:25,001 --> 00:45:27,000 I've been touched here. 695 00:45:27,001 --> 00:45:28,000 I know what it's like. 696 00:45:28,001 --> 00:45:30,000 It doesn't do any good. 697 00:45:30,001 --> 00:45:33,000 Fit them in their pockets. 698 00:45:33,001 --> 00:45:35,000 Take their money off them. 699 00:45:35,001 --> 00:45:37,000 It's the only rule I'm the gentleman. 700 00:45:37,001 --> 00:45:40,000 Good lad, when you go. 701 00:45:40,001 --> 00:45:43,000 You should have come down for these appeals. 702 00:45:43,001 --> 00:45:47,000 It's about these. 703 00:45:47,001 --> 00:45:49,000 It's true. 704 00:45:49,001 --> 00:45:51,000 There she is. 705 00:45:51,001 --> 00:45:54,000 Oh, I don't know. 706 00:45:54,001 --> 00:45:57,000 We've waited so long for this day. 707 00:45:57,001 --> 00:45:59,000 Some of us didn't make it. 708 00:45:59,001 --> 00:46:01,000 People have died, you know? 709 00:46:01,001 --> 00:46:05,000 And all we ever wanted was for the truth to come out and for someone to listen. 710 00:46:05,001 --> 00:46:07,000 It didn't have to be like this. 711 00:46:07,001 --> 00:46:10,000 All these good people, their lives in ruins. 712 00:46:10,001 --> 00:46:15,000 When you look at us, do we let like criminals? 713 00:46:15,001 --> 00:46:18,000 Bob! 714 00:46:18,001 --> 00:46:21,000 Thank you, I've been running quite far. 715 00:46:21,001 --> 00:46:23,000 Not just unfair, but look at this. 716 00:46:23,001 --> 00:46:25,000 And a front to justice. 717 00:46:25,001 --> 00:46:26,000 That's like twice as bad. 718 00:46:26,001 --> 00:46:28,000 No, that's 100 times as bad. 719 00:46:28,001 --> 00:46:31,000 You lambs to the slope and they leave. 720 00:46:31,001 --> 00:46:36,000 Give it to us. 721 00:46:36,001 --> 00:46:42,000 Hey you. 722 00:46:42,001 --> 00:46:44,000 You make me cry about this. 723 00:46:44,001 --> 00:46:46,000 First of all, let's go. 724 00:46:46,001 --> 00:46:48,000 Judge have been Hamilton and others. 725 00:46:48,001 --> 00:46:50,000 First is the first office. 726 00:46:50,001 --> 00:46:52,000 Look at that. 727 00:46:52,001 --> 00:46:54,000 That's what we did. 728 00:46:54,001 --> 00:46:56,000 Look what you did. 729 00:46:56,001 --> 00:46:58,000 Good. 730 00:46:58,001 --> 00:47:00,000 Good. 731 00:47:00,001 --> 00:47:01,000 Good. 732 00:47:01,001 --> 00:47:02,000 Good. 733 00:47:02,001 --> 00:47:03,000 Good. 734 00:47:03,001 --> 00:47:04,000 Good. 735 00:47:04,001 --> 00:47:06,000 Good job. 736 00:47:06,001 --> 00:47:08,000 Good job. 737 00:47:08,001 --> 00:47:16,001 It's jaw-droppingly significant. 738 00:47:20,001 --> 00:47:22,436 The judges have not only ruled that Joe and the 739 00:47:22,448 --> 00:47:25,000 others were wrongfully convicted, but even worse. 740 00:47:25,001 --> 00:47:27,939 But the post office decision to prosecute them was so wrong 741 00:47:27,951 --> 00:47:31,000 that it amounts to an affront to the conscience of the court. 742 00:47:31,001 --> 00:47:37,000 This has to be the widest miscarriage of justice in British legal history. 743 00:47:37,001 --> 00:47:41,000 Good job. 744 00:47:41,001 --> 00:47:43,000 Good job. 745 00:47:43,001 --> 00:47:46,000 Good job. 746 00:47:46,001 --> 00:47:50,000 Good job. 747 00:47:50,001 --> 00:47:58,001 I know what you're thinking. 748 00:48:15,001 --> 00:48:17,000 Good job. 749 00:48:17,001 --> 00:48:20,000 Well, it's not over, is it? 750 00:48:20,001 --> 00:48:25,000 I hope that we just allow ourselves to enjoy it. 751 00:48:25,001 --> 00:48:28,000 Okay. 752 00:48:28,001 --> 00:48:36,001 Good job. 753 00:48:47,001 --> 00:48:48,000 Allen. 754 00:48:48,001 --> 00:48:50,000 Just one email. 755 00:48:50,001 --> 00:48:54,000 Minister of Postal Affairs. 756 00:48:54,001 --> 00:49:02,001 Legal costs for our 555 claimants total now due 46,843,853 pounds. 757 00:49:08,001 --> 00:49:13,000 Plus another month's interest at 8%. 758 00:49:13,001 --> 00:49:15,000 Well, it's up. 759 00:49:15,001 --> 00:49:20,000 On what planet is the government going to pay our legal costs? 760 00:49:20,001 --> 00:49:22,000 They'll have to. 761 00:49:22,001 --> 00:49:23,000 They own the post office. 762 00:49:23,001 --> 00:49:26,000 So shall I hold? The only one. 763 00:49:26,001 --> 00:49:28,000 The only one. 764 00:49:28,001 --> 00:49:34,000 Awkward enough to sit at his computer making trouble for 20 years. 765 00:49:34,001 --> 00:49:42,000 20 years so far. 766 00:49:42,001 --> 00:49:46,000 Just think of it as a hobby that got out of hand. 767 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,000 Preuzeto sa www.titlovi.com